The importance of DevExp for larger developer teams

August 15, 2023

Season 1, Episode 7

The episode features John Shanks and Jay Keshur as they delve deep into the intricacies of developer experience. Their dynamic conversation sheds light on the challenges and opportunities in the realm of DevExp.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

  • The role of developer experience in high-functioning companies.
  • The impact of team size on developer experience.
  • The balance between technology, people, and processes in shaping DevExp.
  • The potential challenges developers face when introduced to new tools and how training can mitigate these challenges.
  • The significance of aligning business outcomes with developer experience.

Themes Covered in the Podcast:

  1. Complexity of Tools: Understanding the myriad of tools available and their impact on developer experience.
  2. High-Functioning Companies: Why top-tier companies prioritize developer experience.
  3. Team Dynamics: How the size and structure of a team can influence the developer experience.
  4. Balancing Act: The interplay between technology, people, and processes in shaping a developer’s day-to-day experience.
  5. Business Outcomes: Aligning developer experience with the overarching goals of a business.

Quick Takeaways:

  1. Developer Experience (DevExp): The overall experience a developer has while working on a project, encompassing tools, processes, and team dynamics.
  2. High-Functioning Companies: Companies that prioritize efficiency, productivity, and quality in their operations.
  3. Federated Sign-Up: A streamlined sign-up process that leverages external platforms for authentication.
  4. Cognitive Load: The mental effort required to understand and use a particular tool or process.
  5. Onboarding Process: The initial training and introduction phase for a developer when introduced to new tools or processes.
  6. SAS Company: Software as a Service company that provides cloud-based services to its users.
  7. Productivity: The efficiency with which tasks are completed, often linked to developer experience.
  8. Collaboration: Working together with other team members to achieve a common goal.
  9. Governance: The set of rules and processes that guide how a team operates.
  10. Platform Engineering Principle: The approach of building platforms that cater to the needs of internal customers, such as developer teams.

Follow for more:
Jon Shanks: LinkedIn
Jay Keshur: LinkedIn
Jon & Jay’s startup: Appvia


0:27season two episode nine I’m John Shanks and I’m Jay Keshur and we’re going to be

0:33talking about developer experience um which apparently your big words very

0:38passionate about what does developer experience mean John um well firstly

0:45um does anyone care about the developer experience no I mean developers are like you know bottom of the food chain so you

0:52don’t shouldn’t be objective um um but no uh obviously developers are

0:59the one that that are literally responsible for shipping value to your

1:04business um so it probably matters what their experience is and how effective they’re

1:10being right exactly yeah so for more I guess it’s more on that well I suppose it is devops too but

1:16platform engineering principle of like building something that is there for

1:22your customers your customers internally might be the developer teams or project teams and there’s an overlays like how

1:29good is what you’ve built for the developer essentially and what is their experience I mean I guess it might not

1:37even be you as a if you if there is this internal capability an internal facing

1:43team and platform team as they’re often called um that is responsible for developer

1:49experience which obviously happens nowadays their develop you know developer

1:54experience could mean you know just how quickly it is to ship code and them

1:59being responsible for shipping code themselves so let’s say that team didn’t exist

2:04um then developer experience might just be them one person writing something in an IDE ship you know and that’s their

2:12experience is great because they have full control of it potentially oh I see what you’re saying so you mean

2:17it’s not even a product angle of it at all you’re just saying yeah exactly it’s like a person that identifies as a

2:23developer will have experiences is that basically what you’re saying and are they good so so

2:30um going going from the like very kind of simplistic terms of developer

2:35experience and then what that means when you add scale or you’re working in a

2:41team or you’re working in a business with lots of teams because they’re the things that I guess would change the

2:47developer experience because then you have this concept of governance or outside influence or reviews and all of

2:53these things that collaboration that has to happen across the business right um and so

2:59experience is now your your experience is almost hampered or affected by the rest of the business

3:06and what it’s doing or forcing upon you does that make sense kind of I think but I guess for this thought we’re talking

3:13about I guess like user experience is you know for a product is more defined

3:19right developer experience more for a product I guess developers developer Focus products

3:26is more like as the experience on these products like is it a good experience for the developer like technologies that

3:33might be very complicated for a developer to understand [Music] um if

3:38if they take a lot of cognitive load to just try and get your head around then you could say Well that took me two

3:45weeks of like researching and training and documentation reading before I even got to do the thing that I was trying to

3:52do in this in this thing like kubernetes obviously a prime example of things that are complicated Cloud could be really

3:57complicated if you’re doing it properly um but yeah so you could say they’re not

4:03great developer experiences um but yeah to your point about like

4:10writing code and then deploying the code I suppose that is an aspect of a measurement of a good experience if they could do

4:18that and it was friction free that’s it then yeah that would factor in I guess that’s what you mean well I don’t even

4:25know what you meant I was just like I was kind of going on the Journey of developer experience right so so

4:31um what I was going to try and do is build out lots of different kind of scenarios based on how many people and

4:37teams there are and how developer experience might change within that so so that you kind of see

4:43that there’s all these influ outside influences um or there are just no other answers

4:51for or there might be in tools out there in the industry that are factored that in um but just in an organization that

4:59hasn’t gone through that level of um kind of thinking or um you know trying to really figure out

5:06the problem and uh and kind of solve for good developer experience they might not

5:12have um got the best out of their developers and the output that they could

5:17potentially have does that make sense so let me let me let me let me just do

5:22it through absolutes because a team developers obviously have a job to be

5:28done right and it’s there to write code and develop software for the business so knowing that obviously the experience

5:35is already confined because they’re not doing all the jobs we’ve got a very safe literally well then their title would

5:42probably change I presume that would necessarily be a developer you are a CEO and developer you have a one-man team of

5:48you all right but I mean just normally like a developer that isn’t also a CEO because they’ll probably change their

5:54title to be more CEO than developer who knows but they have lots of different aul aliases they are a developer they’ve

6:02got a very concrete defined set of responsibilities and obviously in the industry they’re quite well defined yep

6:08um so what you’re saying is the experience I’m a bit confused what you mean about it couldn’t change and the problem and

6:15I’m not sure what the problem is okay so let me that’s why it’s probably useful to to take you on the Journey of like

6:22expanding this team and stuff right so let’s say let’s like start from absolute Basics you are a single developer

6:30um and you are trying to ship an application uh and going live with it so you probably don’t need that many gates

6:37you don’t have someone reviewing your code your developer experience is literally probably pushing to you know a git repo

6:45and having some automation that pushes it to the environments that you need to go through right this is sorry this is a

6:52person just one person one is one person no no there’s there’s no no one else

6:57there there’s no other developers in this in this where are the other developers They’re All Dead wow what

7:04happened [Laughter] where is this place where all these people died and there’s only one

7:10developer that’s writing code so that’s Planet number one right okay Planet number two solar system we’re going for

7:17right okay I mean I’ve got to contextualize this somehow yeah um so um and Planet number two you have

7:24a team of say five developers working on a single product

7:29um and now because they are forced to collaborate the way that they might

7:34collaborate um and to improve quality because it’s not just just them that’s responsible for the application might be to do code

7:42reviews to do a lot load of things um that put time into the build process

7:49so that the the time to Value I.E the time that it takes to ship uh code to

7:56production is longer it takes longer and the reason for that is because there’s there’s a team that you now have to work

8:03with and collaborate with and improve the quality with Etc so that’s do you kind of see the journey

8:09that I’m sort of going on in terms of developer experience and how that’s changed by the size of the team or the

8:16things that you might have to do um I think so from from more of a

8:23what people are experiencing in their like day to day like

8:28a developer might leave the office and experience a bunch of other things or maybe the office moved it took them

8:34longer to get into the office so I think yeah there’s in terms of like people will be involved in other things and

8:39there’ll be other involvements so you’re saying that because of that the experience Alters just because

8:45there’s other people and others of the process yeah so you’re talking more about the process but that is experience

8:51developer experience I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just saying just trying to understand so you’re saying that the

8:57experience what they’re experiencing is the process whereas before the process didn’t exist

9:04so they never experienced it and they didn’t experience it they still experienced it but it was just really easy because well there wasn’t one

9:11unless they created one they created yeah exactly because everyone else had died yeah so apparently

9:18um 28 Days Later yeah developers yeah so what they’re doing so you’re saying right the processes also matter

9:25as much as say the product and the product could could allow you to create

9:31the processes anyway that could be part of the product in theory yeah yeah I’m going to say

9:36something really um well an overused term but it’s so useful

9:41to describe this which is like technology people and processes wow all

9:47of those things oh my mind I know right all of those things make up developer experience yeah um and if you change any

9:55one of those things then obviously it changes developer experience right so so

10:00if we’re kind of changing people and how many people there are yeah and then the

10:06um a number of uh processes that you have to introduce to maintain quality and to get a certain level of speed and

10:14then you probably want to introduce technology to keep that speed up and

10:20that quality up and that cognitive load down um so to make the developers as

10:26efficient as possible reduce complexity um and you might be able to reduce

10:31complexity by introducing technology that

10:37um allows developers to simplify what they’re doing day to day I see I’m going

10:43to go off an attention too so if the experience for the developer

10:48meant that the software um took over those processes and

10:55actually the software provided the quality so therefore yeah say it was like what

11:01is this so it was like Bots or something or like some some way of like some Ai

11:06and machine learning could go through the code could work out the structures and like do all this other stuff draculate with butter experience where

11:13people would be like what about the AI experience what about the experience yeah it’s really important in the botland that was like a bit of a tangent

11:20but because obviously so the the experience for them

11:25is if if something did radically do it all and didn’t have to worry then the experience would be good

11:33um I guess what’s the definition of the experience is it about friction this is what I’m it was being Physicians before

11:39but to ground it in something is it about is it about business outcome

11:45and that’s how you’re measuring what a good experience is or is it about literally how that person is feeling

11:53about it or is it about the productivity so it I guess it’s really hard to

12:00um to have any idea about business outcome because you don’t know what they’re developing or how effective they’re

12:05being their skills and acknowledging that space right so the only things that we can measure in this hypothetical

12:12um no I mean it’s just like in this cup in a company where someone’s working yeah and then someone says

12:18um this is a really bad developer experience yeah would you think that

12:23means that the business outcomes poor or would you think that someone’s just not enjoying using something and it’s more

12:30about like a more of an emotional response as opposed to a business outcome response I suppose good question

12:38um I guess I would say that if um because the the developers are there to

12:45give you that business outcome then um and their experience as poor are you

12:52hampering that um are you you know have they met it are you hampering that have you uh met the

12:58opportunity of the market or whatever that your business is trying to strive for probably not because the out because the

13:05experience is poor however if you unblock that could you do those things

13:11potentially who knows right so he’s saying if it is emotional

13:16and someone’s saying the experience is bad yeah that that’s equally

13:22as important because you’re assuming then they’re not being productive or you have made an assumption there

13:28yeah so um the assumption that I’ve made is a

13:35happy developer is a productive developer right um do you know any happy developers I

13:40know quite a lot yeah before they all died what was only one left and and what do

13:47you reckon of that assessment are happy developers productive developers I mean I think there’s Merit in

13:55um why somebody feels the way they do is in if someone’s like frustrated and you’re talking about frustration yeah

14:00and the frustration probably is could be sold maybe with training because it

14:06could be that they just don’t know how to use something right and it could be that frustration in the outcome that

14:13they’re trying to be in the same yeah so like say say you’re trying to do something like you could could be anything so they’re trying to use I

14:19don’t know get I’ve never used git before whatever and then they’re getting frustrated

14:25because they’re spending loads of time reading and people get frustrated from learning no

14:31not saying learning they’re using they’re using something they’re using it and they’re trying to learn it while using it but they’re wanting to strive

14:37for an outcome this is just an example it’s probably a really bad example

14:42because you’d assume the might you use git but in just argument’s sake yeah yeah as something that they’re consuming

14:48that gets in the way of their job when they’re like doing some merge conflicts and there’s all these things

14:54that don’t understand what it is then they could get frustrated and say the experience is really bad because it’s like slow me down you know and I’m

15:01having to read and I’m really confused and don’t really understand there’s like a three-way diff blah blah blah whatever else is going on right

15:08um that’s to me sounds like a different problem of um value not being aligned to the thing

15:16that they’re using so get for example like would someone get frustrated that people would only get

15:23frustrated if they didn’t see value in the thing no because they’re trying to do a job that’s what I’m saying they

15:29would like they don’t see the value in the in in that tool or the thing no not

15:34necessarily the same way as traffic annoys me it’s not like I don’t see the value in a car right I just don’t like

15:40being stuck in traffic it slows me down so it’s not I have an issue with the car you are the traffic I have an issue with

15:45other people’s cars being on the road at the same time I mean you literally are the traffic if you’re here but the point

15:51is you’re do using something and other things are getting in the way of the outcome and it could be that it’s

15:57because you don’t know how to use it properly or you didn’t you know you’re not being trained fully so therefore the

16:03frustration goes up and then you could say well that was a bad experience to the person and it reduced productivity

16:09okay but you could solve it with training right because you could actually had they done training beforehand then maybe they wouldn’t have

16:15had that problem oh it could be so good that you don’t need training on it

16:21um and it’s so easy to use that you just get on with it and you never really need to read the docs and you’re fine easy so

16:30but all that is developer experience yeah yeah that’s what the developer is experiencing exactly and the outcomes

16:38are different and the problems within it are slightly different from training versus the tool versus the products Etc

16:43people process technology yeah yeah not less probably less so on the

16:48process more learning like education isn’t that part of uh onboarding process or something like that potentially

16:56um maybe I mean it could have been yeah I don’t know um or the introduction of a tool

17:03yeah I mean there’s so many things to unpick here exactly that’s what we’re talking about that’s the point to talk about it so

17:09on one side you could say I’m just gonna hire everybody that already has loads of experience and I’m going to test for

17:15that yeah as in like experience of git itself in this example and therefore I

17:21won’t hit that problem um yeah and the same with anything but then it

17:27doesn’t mean that it was a good experience so I guess when we talk about developer experience how are you

17:32measuring it exactly that’s what I’m trying to dig into what’s the detail of it how do you know what a good

17:39experience is because experience could be subjective it could be to based on your knowledge it could be based on your

17:44assumptions and your expectations of something being misaligned if I was expecting this to write itself right I

17:51thought git was supposed to write the code and not me then I’d say the experience really bad because my expectation of it was wrong

17:58so I mean how would you given what you’ve said

18:04um and given that people could have different experiences people could have different expectations people have could

18:10have different knowledge like is there any kind of

18:15um thought process that you’ve gone through to describe a metric that could be responsible for well I guess that’s

18:22why products have metrics in them yeah so you can work it out over a sample size that’s varied so you know the speed

18:29of which somebody can achieve something in your product if you were measuring the touch points you know who knew what

18:35the product was striving to achieve for somebody then you could measure the touch points and how long it took on

18:40average for somebody to get that outcome like how long did it take somebody to sign up

18:45right to the thing um if you Confederate to Google did that

18:50expedite right the sign up flow did we reduce it was the experience improved because it was less steps

18:57um that type of thing I suppose would tell you whether someone cared about filling deforming or just federating

19:03might not be might not have been problematic enough for someone to care that much but just as an example You

19:09could argue experience was improved on logging into the product even first

19:15yeah so all right so no change in metric whatsoever potentially

19:21um I.E the time that it takes is the same but um the way that information is presented

19:26or the way that it looks is better which yeah or might have actually been longer because you’ve got to fill a form in or

19:32even longer okay so the experience could be improved but the process could take longer no as in if there’s a sign up

19:39flow okay versus Federated right then obviously it’s probably going to take me long to put my name in my email right so

19:45that should have been it should have reduced effort if I saw people never filled the form in and unveiled

19:53then and then now that’s reduced and we never really see that anymore because people don’t fill the form but they

19:59Federate and we get better success but we don’t see the drop-off anymore then you could say well that must have

20:05improved because some people gave up just trying to sign up and now we don’t see anyone give up

20:12right so therefore it must have improved if the data points have changed

20:18so I suppose you can look at it from that perspective I suppose it’s whether the outcome for a business is more

20:23what’s aligned to isn’t it it’s like it was saying productivity as a company for developer experience

20:29might be different to say a SAS product when you’re looking at it from I’m a

20:35business that’s presenting a SAS product back to people and it’s more could be b2c even yeah it might not even be B2B

20:42or something yeah all the developers that I’m talking about well I was talking about Spotify on this podcast

20:48yeah I don’t know why Spotify it’s a developer experience there’s lots of

20:53developers on Spotify well you would think talking about b2c and I was like which b2c companies are there that

20:59everyone knows and uses Uber all right Spotify GitHub GitHub

21:05um you don’t need to be an org to use it yeah yeah yeah um yeah quite a few yeah um so

21:12if you are a organization um that is responsible for building a

21:18SAS company then you’re going to measure developer experience differently perhaps well that’s one piece because they’re

21:24incentivized to do so because obviously they make money I mean different but doesn’t every like every business is

21:32trying to do something because they have developers right oh yeah that wasn’t a statement of me saying that was my point

21:38of view oh right I’m just saying just from a SAS that makes money from developers there will be incentivized

21:44obviously to improve the experience because it helps them as a business to do so because their audience is a developer the caveat question would be

21:51obviously you want to care about that anyway even internally as a business even if that wasn’t the case because you

21:57want productivity and you want people to be successful and you want developers to be successful which is why developer

22:03experience matters but as we’ve already discovered is complicated so and lacks detail of how

22:10you would measure it and I guess contextually it would depend on all of the things that a developer has to do and how much

22:18you’re striving for within it yeah so I guess I mean

22:24like with everything you can’t really measure something that you haven’t

22:29scoped um so if if we’re talking about developers and experience

22:36um just to kind of I guess bring a bit more bring this to a bit more of a conclusion

22:42um so if we’re talking about developer experience you’re working in a business may or may not be a SAS

22:49um what are the potential variables that you might use to measure developer

22:56experience is that a question or is it rhetorical all right well that’s a question

23:02um it would depend on the what what it was how you were probably structured a

23:09bit and what um a developer is writing code so why does it matter how your

23:15organization is structured well as in if they’re writing r d and it was all r d that might be quite different to say

23:21yeah you know I guess it context would matter on whether I care as much about

23:26the experience say are indeed in them being quite free to come up with different ideas and

23:31Innovation right I might there might be less friction in how I construct stuff because there’s less risk so therefore

23:37maybe there’s a bit more freedom yeah so the kind of the context matters right so context does matter and you you kind of

23:45touched on a bit of a uh a buzzword like devsecops and all of this kind of stuff

23:51right you know almost like Risk you talked about risk and if you’re doing r

23:56d then maybe um you are able to take a bit more risk and not necessarily have to introduce

24:04I don’t know hurdles in your developer experience that relate to security yeah

24:09exactly yeah I suppose it would be that or just whether it’s ever going to go anywhere

24:14it might not ever ever get deployed to anything it’s in like it might not touch infrastructure even ever

24:20so supporting it then because it’s just Innovation you’re just trying to work out how to solve a problem it might be

24:26just you could do it locally on your machine you could solve some engineering challenge on your machine that never needed any infrastructure and proven

24:33something out potentially I mean not saying that is the only case but I guess if you’re

24:39striving to though to I don’t know get some new feature out um

24:45and there’s a marketing budget and you there’s a launch day and there’s loads

24:51of other things that the business has invested in yeah then you want to make sure that all of that is met and that

24:58means that feature has to be completed in time and so

25:03that end to end you’d want to measure and you want it completed with a good

25:09level of quality and a decent security posture

25:14Quality Security and to spec or so I don’t know at that

25:20point whether that becomes experience because that’s more about

25:26the quality the quality of what’s produced is not experience

25:32um it would be experience if that developer then has a bunch of bugs to fix

25:37right because the outcome doesn’t change the requirements don’t change now the

25:44time has changed because you’ve not met the outcome because there’s bugs that have been introduced

25:49that you produce them yeah so are you now countable

25:56accountable to your own experience of yourself is that where it’s got to exactly like you in your example about

26:01git and not not necessarily you know yeah I mean I’m I’m asking to go through

26:07it just seemed bizarre like would that surely wouldn’t fall into the bucket of developer experience about if you create

26:12the bugs you create maybe like knowing about the bugs mate but not

26:18I guess if you didn’t write any tests yeah and there was just code being written and

26:24you didn’t follow any best practice and then you got loads of bugs and that was kind of on you like surely that can’t be

26:30classified as a bad developer experience maybe there’s a victim of your own demise maybe there’s developer

26:36experience and then say team experience or like

26:41um some sort of quality metric that goes with it because now the team is responsible for the crap that you’ve

26:48just shipped to production this is basically why the developer experience is so poor this is we are unraveling why

26:55this is a problem in the industry right now because there’s so many factors of like why these situations Could

27:03Happen yeah that then impede something else somewhere else that may not be down

27:08to the tool you know it may not be down to the process right so there’s many

27:15there’s many reasons but I guess if we’re trying to measure The Experience you’d have to look at it

27:21from like how you’re going to actually cognitively or statistically prove where the

27:27problems actually are like was the knowledge equal of these two people did they have the same

27:33backgrounds and experience so which is pretty much impossible yeah exactly no one person’s the same but if they

27:40if they were relatively close then you would expect that you’d get

27:46roughly the same outcome if the tooling was good whereas if if they’re if their knowledge

27:53and experience is roughly equal I mean no one’s ever going to be equal or lots of people and then you’re seeing

28:01um the same poor outcome repeatedly you’d probably have to conclude that it wasn’t the people

28:07right because there’s too many of them for that for it to be all down to them at that stage unless you’re just piring

28:14badly yeah unless none of them are developed exactly and you’re like yeah I’m tired

28:19of a bunch of Bas yeah develop we should not have hired these none of them were developed did we hire developers no well

28:26that’s why that’s why the data is for developer experience we didn’t actually yeah I didn’t realize we actually meant

28:34to hire developers oh yeah that’s what will happen but no I think I think there’s loads of tools it’s funny you

28:40say that though right because nowadays low code platforms which ship value

28:46right um they talk about experience of outcomes potentially even developer

28:52experience but they don’t have to write any code so is it a good developer experience and

28:59are they hiring the right sort of skill sets to get the outcome yeah do they have the best experience because they’re

29:05not a developer then it isn’t a developer experience is it because are they developing a product

29:11well then they’re not a developer at that point are they you surely if you

29:17don’t develop anything or you’re developing business logic you’re through something else through something else

29:23right that I mean I I genuinely don’t know this is uh it’s quite a

29:30so if quandary something translates what I’m saying into another language I’m

29:35speaking that language Google translate actually I technically can speak many

29:41languages I had I didn’t realize it the whole time I’ve been fluent I mean I am fluent in every language Google

29:47translate allows me exactly that’s it so presumably you’re not a developer the

29:52same as we wouldn’t be able to speak a language but but say not no code I I

29:58meant local oh Loco is different yes because you are you are you need to understand you know exactly yeah yeah

30:04exactly so you are developing in something just like you’re not going to write machine code but there’s a

30:09compiler that is turning it into that right yeah yeah fair I guess the same

30:15principle um so they are developing in some so there is an experience of how useful

30:22that doll is to somebody else yeah who is a developer and arguably maybe the best developer experience depending on

30:29whether or not they can hit that outcome quickly securely so are we saying stop

30:35developing people just go and use the best possible metric you can have for developer experience is that you never

30:41have to write the code never develop but there is code written and yeah that’s the best possible High

30:48bar for developer experiences that you actually don’t physically have to write any of it I mean he just writes itself

30:54there’s some real ideas in here for AI development in the future this is the best that’s the highest possible bar

31:01yeah exactly it’s a strive for but development is yeah is when everything’s

31:06done for you you don’t like the best taxi experience to have a taxi driver will not go anywhere is to then never

31:13drive the car again it just drives itself and picks people up or just just you know you don’t get I don’t know why I’m on cars in this thing because I

31:20don’t know anything about cars really somebody’s gone for cars but um yeah this is what happens when you

31:25have a beer and just do a podcast um

31:31all right so for Dev experience then for what we’re contextualizing gets more

31:38for this podcast where people are building things for like it’s called Cloud employers context yeah

31:44um building something on the cloud those that are going to Cloud how fast can a developer

31:49get and get a result yeah shoot themselves that’s useful ship and uh an

31:55outcome that meets their requirements that is done on time to budget with no

32:03you know security issues or flaws or whatever so if you are optimizing for all of

32:10those things um then you’ve probably got a good developer experience that’s that’s so

32:17broad you can’t really argue with it right yeah no you can’t argue yeah but if if we’re saying

32:24if we’d remove the ultimate Ultimate Experience being it just doesn’t do it all itself as in like yeah yeah I mean

32:31so if we move the bar down somewhere to like real life humans yeah then it would

32:39be that you got feedback from the code you’d written it for me the others are from A system

32:46that tells you about any problems that you might have as in lights that didn’t function the way you expected you’ve

32:52tested it and it didn’t really work as expected right so well if you reduce the amount of time which which is what

32:57you’re saying the speed of which I know there’s a problem yeah so to fix the quality has gone up and the time has

33:04gone down because someone someone out there has something has probably told me

33:11and done an external review or you know paused the code in some way to tell me

33:16that there are security vulnerabilities or bugs that you’ve introduced or you know it doesn’t meet said things yeah so

33:23the there’s the code itself yep and knowing about the state of it is in like

33:29is there something for me to do on the code because then the packaging up of the code

33:34um there’s then the testing of the packaged up of the code did it actually did the package of the

33:40thing even work like can I run it pre-imposed yeah yeah so you know unit integration test and then end-to-end

33:46testing this is security aspects of the code and the packaged thing the other things as well within all of this like

33:51maybe if I’m trying to fail fast to fix stuff the earlier I know the more I can fix it’s like it’s a security issue with

33:57the code I’ve just written is there a security issue with the things I’ve just built um then is then how can I get an

34:03environment right so there’s that so I need to deploy this thing how do I get my dependencies but this thing might

34:09consume in that environment of the versions of the things that they need to kind of test against yep

34:16and then I then need to move that through and promote it through many environments to the point that it goes live and then it’s consumed

34:23um is developer experience basically and everything else ancillary and within

34:30yeah like the speed of which I got the cloud resource the speed of which I’ve got environment the speed of which I

34:35could have access to that environment yeah maybe it isn’t me deploying to the speed of which CI had a robot account that can get it

34:42it wasn’t me that could then go and deploy that into the environment yeah because I might leave and then exactly

34:47if the CI broke because I left because you off boarded me then that’s not great yeah because it was my user account it

34:52was using so you need it robot um and then everything from that is like do

34:57I know there’s any problems with all of that process and how quick was all of that yeah and then if if the developer

35:04is also responsible for running because nowadays you you know devops you build

35:09it you run it whatever then in production is my system scaling so I

35:15have observability do I have obserability like all the logs how easy it is does it tell me why the problem is

35:21very quickly all of that is still developer experience yeah there’s a lot of things

35:27that a developer has to do this isn’t so they went from should we shift left some more what about

35:35um driving cars so so you and all of that is the

35:41experiment so the ownership is on the developer in some in some ways potentially I mean these are assumptions we’ve kind of made that that they are

35:47the owner of this stuff obviously some ogs they might not be responsible and they just they stop at the artifact

35:54and then they hand it over to another team and that other team then takes no no I mean nowadays you don’t you know

36:00that has a lot of traditional there are but like high functioning you know high

36:06value companies generally you can kind of say that yeah

36:12um you you can say that they’ve they’ve kind of um they’re at some sort of maturity where they’re responsible for in some

36:21way um the quality that of the product that they’ve just shipped whether that is like a you know you build and run thing

36:27or they’re more accountable or their comp plan or something is is related to

36:32that um to kind of push the right behaviors in the right way but I guess ultimately what like what we’ve talked

36:39about is pretty complex so we’ve talked about a million different tools you can you can kind of start to understand

36:46why all of these high functioning companies actually do um solve a

36:53developer experience like it’s super important there’s so many things very important to solve here and there’s so

36:58many um because there’s um because they are literally responsible for the value that your

37:05company brings um any one of the things that we’ve talked about could be a massive blocker

37:11learning you know tools processes onboarding security all of this stuff

37:17nuts yeah crazy yeah so that’s it I think we’ve wrapped up developer experience don’t become a developer

37:24maybe just go and drive some cars or something yeah or like don’t get stuck in traffic yeah

37:30yeah self-driving That’s the Way Forward um cool I think that’s without going on for

37:36another eight million hours we’ve probably concluded enough so um thanks for listening in and we’ll be

37:42back to the next episode thanks all cheers bye